…and a good woman? Hmm.

24Jan/1021

…and a good woman? Hmm.

And now here comes the "backlash" to the stories/convos I linked to yesterday.

From Newsweek: Nuh-uh, no problems here:

Are some women too picky? Sure. People are shallow, unkind, and judgmental. But I don't know any women who have checklists. If they do, I imagine it's something most grow out of. If you will only date someone who looks like Brad Pitt, "earns a gazillion dollars, and makes your knees go weak every time you're together," as Gottlieb writes, then you're probably either 20 or stupid. Most of us just want to love and be loved. The data show that when it comes to money and education, women are in fact lowering their standards. A Pew study released Jan. 19 found that in 1970, 4 percent of wives earned more than their husbands. In 2007, 22 percent did. The percentage of women who had more education than their husbands rose from 20 to 28.

Let me put you a little knowledge: the women who have priced themselves out of the marriage market with unreasonable checklists won't be married. Your stats have proved nothing.

I know, I know, logic is hard. But try to wrap your head around that.

By the way, the "unreasonable checklists" many women have set the hurdle much below the Brad Pitt level. People checklist out guys based on age, education level, profession, accent, hobbies, etc.

``What? He's a mechanic? But I have a B.A. in Self-Navel Studies from Pretentious Lib Arts College and can read such deep works as "Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity"! Oh, I suppose. If I can't get any other dates....''

...and then when said guy doesn't call back after one date, she claims that men are simply intimidated by her intelligence. Hmmm, sure that condescending to the guy and showing him no respect had nothing to do it?

Of course, it's not all women who are like this. Plenty of women do not have inflated ideas of what they're entitled to. But the type of women who write for the Newsweek or the NYTimes, or.. well, let's look at Lori Gottleib, who wrote the book on settling in marriage that inspired the Newsweek piece:

Lori is also a frequent commentator for NPRâ€™s All Things Considered, and her radio features have aired on public radioâ€™s This American Life, Weekend Edition, and Marketplace.

As a journalist and columnist, Lori has written for a variety of publications, including The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Time, People, The Atlantic, Elle, Glamour, Redbook, Self, Parents, Slate, and Salon.

The anecdote pulled out about Gottleib had to do with a guy who had an Ivy degree, that she dithered on whether to go out with -- because he had recently been divorced [that is not necessarily a bad reason to avoid a guy, rebounds suck], but also that he was from the Bronx and OMG! might have an accent and be all declasse. [And I see she is continuing the tradition of expanding a magazine article into an entire book. Nice work if you can get it.]

Yes, these are the women that need to be told that you're not going to be able to be super-picky about what your dealbreakers are. You really need to think of what's important -- you want someone who's dependable and trustworthy, for example. Those are good checklist items. That the guy has the proper pedigree [in terms of education, profession, accent, clothes] can be a very foolish requirement, especially if these pedigrees are in short supply and the supply of women acceptable to such men is much larger.

ADDED: Comments from Dr. Helen:

So our society has created a mess where men are vilified in the classroom, fed PC rhetoric, told their life's goal is to make women happy and do anything that assists her with her goals, while simultaneously told that he is a dope, idiot and unable to care properly for children, and now people are questioning where Mr. Right went?

MORE: Coverage of Gottleib's book by the Telegraph

Actually, a lot of the Austen "heros" sucked. Except Mr. Henry Tilney. Saucy, saucy Henry. =hot=

More seriously, Austen did talk about settling in her novels, and did not portray it as a necessarily bad thing. In Pride and Prejudice, Eliza's best friend Charlotte marries the execrable Mr. Collins, but Elizabeth eventually decides that it's a good match for her friend, who was basically an old maid. But then, there's Maria Bertram from Mansfield Park. Bad, bad news. Those who think the spinster Austen presents a fairy-tale view of marriage is way way off. I'll post on that another time, though I'm thinking that post won't be as popular as my recent ones.

Meep

Meep is a member of the Irish Catholic mafia, having a suspiciously high number of green-eyed, red-haired friends. While she doesn’t have red hair herself [except when she goes into the sun (rare for any vampire)], she does have green eyes. She’s a raving Papist and is a life actuary on the side [i.e., she counts dead people]. An amateur pain-in-the-ass [willing to go pro!], she likes covering retirement, mortality, math, and education issues.

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Dan Collins
January 24th, 2010 - 05:31

She wants a dark, mysterious demon lover who’s also a heart-on-his-sleeve good provider, but she’ll never marry if she won’t settle for a man.

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The Doll
January 24th, 2010 - 06:12

I have to agree with you – many women I know have unreasonable expectations from longterm relationships. But the number of times my educated, professional female friends have said things like, “He’s not good-looking enough for you,” or “He can’t take care of you the way you deserve,” has driven me right up the wall. I take care of myself quite fine, thanks, and as for my chosen mate’s looks/education/income, they’re all irrelevant in the face of little things like what kind of person they are and whether or not I enjoy their company.

These particular women (and just as many men, in my experience) completely miss that a longterm relationship, including marriage, is a commitment to live and plan your lives together, and that involves compromise and selflessness. If you’re not good at those two things, you will never achieve success in marriage, no matter what your background, education level, or paycheck is.

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carin
January 24th, 2010 - 07:42

I dunno. Judging by the men I know … I’m afraid for single women. I have a bil who is only interested in women who are 1)much younger than him and 2) not interested in him- play extremely hard to get. Nice girls? Forgetaboutit.

My husband’s employees – 3 out of 4 are SERIEL cheaters. The three that are single. The forth is married, and I don’t really know anything about him.

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- Meep
  January 24th, 2010 - 07:59
  
  True, there are men who play games, too, and can burn themselves by running after unreliable chicks. It does go both ways.
  
  But it’s less troublesome for men to the extent that their fertility lasts longer and that they can remain attractive to many women to a higher age.
  
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Enoch_Root
January 24th, 2010 - 08:49

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
never make a Yankee Woman your wife
From my particular point of view
get a Polish Girl to marry you.

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- Dan Collins
  January 24th, 2010 - 09:41
  
  That’s very sweet, Matt. Hope you show Jen.
  
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Martha Coakley
January 24th, 2010 - 09:19

Yeah, take yourself out of the breeding pool, bitch. Next thing you know, I’m up to my ass in Micks and Dagos and Catholics.

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- Enoch_Root
  January 24th, 2010 - 10:08
  
  Dagos?
  
  Micks and Poles – and, yes, Catholics!
  
  We’ve already done our part for future Martyrs and Crusaders. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 – each meaner than the previous.
  
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- Meep
  January 24th, 2010 - 11:00
  
  We sure know how to spawn. I’ve only got three myself, but given that’s what my Ma scored, and now she has 6 grandkids… works for me.
  
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Martha Coakley
January 24th, 2010 - 09:22

Carin — how do you differentiate between ‘play extremely hard to get’ and ‘nice girls’? I ask because I ~~have a hot date~~ sincerely want to know…

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Enoch_Root
January 24th, 2010 - 10:12

Cake offers this – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KmB8Laemg

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Sara (Pal2Pal)
January 24th, 2010 - 16:13

As a woman, it makes me see red when I read such stupid blather from men and women about what women should want or do want. I want to scream, “idiots! You are all idiots.”

A man with intelligence does not have to have a gazillion degrees. In fact, they turn out to be rather boring. Full of themselves. Who needs that?

Yes intelligent enough to match your own curiosity is great, but even more important: can he fix the car? can he rewire your house for your new electronic playtoys? Can he fix things around the house that need fixing? Will he bait a hook or will you have to do it for him because it is beneath him to get his hands dirty? Will he take out the garbage or do the heavy lifting for you? Is he reliable, can you count on him to watch your back or is he looking for a caretaker, a mommy? Can you trust him? And most important, is he the type who thinks he has to be in competition with you? This is a killer to any relationship and usually hints that he is really a sexist who needs to constantly prove his manhood at your expense. And finally, is he so filled with his own importance that he can’t give you credit for anything? (This is the equivalent of the 21st century barefoot and pregnant mentality.)

The women I know all say they want a partner, someone to share life, someone they can love and who they trust to love them back in equal measure.

Of course, what do I know? I’ve been alone now for 8 years and have yet to meet a man anywhere near my age who isn’t looking and expecting, no matter how out of shape or poor they are, to have the perfect woman (some movie mag ideal) on their arm. And they sure aren’t interested in anyone approaching seasoned citizen status. My experience in these last eight years is that men want young, dumb, and a meal ticket for themselves.

Go on any of the online matchmaker services and you’ll see the male profiles over and over and over again listing all the physical attributes they expect in a potential match and very little about the qualities of the person they’d like to spend the rest of their life.

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- Kendrick
  January 24th, 2010 - 21:24
  
  And your massive failure of logic here is in thinking that men and women will, can, or even should want the same things in a partner.
  
  All of the effort women like you have put into telling men what we should want hasn’t done a damn thing to change what we actually do want.
  
  Until you come to terms with that and either change yourself to deliver what men actually want from you, or resign yourself to spending the rest of your life alone, you’re just going to get more and more bitter as you continue to fail to attract men.
  
  N.B.: Bitterness, like you’re displaying here, is not on the list of things that make a woman more attractive. Quite the opposite really. I suggest you keep a rein on that when you meet a guy you’re interested in.
  
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Johanna
January 24th, 2010 - 18:58

I’ve narrowed my list down to two(besides my husband of course): Edward or Jacob

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Laughingdog
January 24th, 2010 - 21:28

If you want some really good examples of why women can’t find Mr. Right, just check out their personal ads on online dating sites. With so many, their profiles are just so painfully negative that any man with a lick of sense won’t even waste his time on a first date. Here’s an example of the start of a profile I’m looking at right now, slightly condensed for space:

“1. CANâ€™T DOS and RED FLAGS:
- Hook-ups and one night stands… if you are on here looking for someone to have a night of “fun” with…… NO THANKS. I’m intersted in getting to know you. Not interested in getting naughty with you after a couple dates. Sorry.
- Don’t bother to call for a date after 9pm.
- Anger (I canâ€™t stand someone who canâ€™t manage their anger, who yells, or bottles it up inside)
- Cocky
- Negative
- Sarcastic in a mean way
- Cynical
- Over bearing (unable to give personal space)
- Lying
- Cheating ”

That’s her opening. First of all, why even mention that, much less open with something like that. It’s not like there’s a woman out there that opens her profile with “Seeking lying, cheating, abusive bastard”. Second, when you throw in negative stuff like that, it just tells the decent men, or at least the older ones with a bit of experience, that you probably have a lot of issues left to deal with.

The worst part is just how quickly the rate of winks and emails I received on Match dropped when I lied about my income and dropped it down a couple of brackets.

Sara wrote this a couple comments up:
“The women I know all say they want a partner, someone to share life, someone they can love and who they trust to love them back in equal measure.”

Sara, the women you know are either lying, or they are the rare minority.

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- Sara (Pal2Pal)
  January 24th, 2010 - 23:22
  
  It is sad, laughingdog, that you think the women are lying. Maybe they are, so I’ll only speak for myself. I was married 32 years, I’ve been single for 8. After 2 years of being alone, I decided to test the waters and see if there was still a chance of meeting someone who I might want around for more than a drink or dinner. I looked around for two years and then threw up my hands in disgust.
  
  The first shock was finding out that most men out there, even the older ones, considered me a piece of meat. The second thing that became clear was that putting a profile up on a match site was just short of being a streetwalker in the eyes of the men trolling the sites. For someone who had not been in the dating scene for over 30 years, I felt like I’d been dropped onto a different planet.
  
  I don’t proclaim myself any great beauty, but I have never felt I didn’t have a certain sexual or sensual appeal, but it was really disconcerting to have first contacts want to know everything about my sexual preferences and practices and what my measurements are. Give out your phone number and it is like a red flag, “lonely woman willing to give phone sex.”
  
  Next they want to know how much income I have and whether I’m a good housekeeper and cook. Now, I’m not looking for someone rich, just someone that can contribute and together we could enjoy a decent retirement that neither of us might afford on our own. I’ve put in 44 years in the workforce and raised 2 kids and 2 foster children. I’m not interested in being someone’s chief cook and bottle washer. That’s not to say that I want them to have to do the housework, just that I’m ready to enjoy retirement and maybe have someone care enough about me to want to take care of me once in awhile, not all the time, but once in awhile is nice. Most of the men out there trolling want it all their way and screw what the woman wants or needs.
  
  I skip right by the pretty boys. There are enough women out there in competition, I don’t want to compete with the man in my life. I also skip all the guys who stress how educated they are or how successful they are. First most of it isn’t true, but as a Type A trying to downsize and simplify, I don’t need someone in my life whose other commitments mean he can’t or won’t put me first. I skip all law enforcement types, they are way way too controlling. Military is great and usually means we will be on the same page politically. And even though I have a deep faith, I try to stay away from men who stress how religious they are in their profiles as they usually turn out to be stuffed shirts and controlling. Or they cannot deal with me as a conservative leaning libertarian. And this is just me, but I stay away from all the potty-mouthed guys – too juvenile no matter how old they are.
  
  I’ve also found that men and women seem to define partner or partnership very differently. To me, partner means someone to share the good, the bad, the beautiful, the ugly and the decisions. Two individual halves that together form a whole greater than their parts. Two people who fill in the blanks for each other, who can pick up the slack for each other when one is weaker or less skilled. A mutual respect. It doesn’t necessarily mean keeping some kind of balance sheet where the guy is keeping track of how much he contributes financially and if he contributes more then that gives him the right to treat the woman as an employee or chattel.
  
  I also learned that what I had with both my husband of longstanding and my Dad was the exception rather than the rule when it came to finding a man willing to give me credit and be proud of my accomplishments, no matter how insignificant, in the same way I’d be proud of his. Dealing with the male ego is very trying at times for all women, a delicate balancing act with many. So a man secure in his own skin with leadership qualities is important.
  
  But, I have to say, you are right about a profile that lists all the don’ts. I understand it, but it is really stupid. Every situation is different and it is very unfair to either party to hold them to some standard based on past experiences, bad (betrayal) or good. That goes for profiles like you quoted and for widows and widowers alike. You cannot compete with a dead person who becomes more perfect in memory than they ever could have been in real life. This may not be a problem for the younger guys and gals, but when you get to my age, this is a big deal.
  
  I quit looking in 2006. Do I like being alone. No, I hate it. I want someone to celebrate with and someone to cry with. I would love to have someone fun and easy going who enjoys travel. And I’d love to find a computer guru who could bail me out of trouble when I make stupid programming errors. :)
  
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  - Laughingdog
    January 25th, 2010 - 00:03
    
    I didn’t say I thought they were lying. I listed the only two possibilities that I considered to have any realistic chance of being valid based on my experience.
    
    What I find sad is that you, behaving like most women I encounter, latch onto the negative one.
    
    “It doesnâ€™t necessarily mean keeping some kind of balance sheet where the guy is keeping track of how much he contributes financially and if he contributes more then that gives him the right to treat the woman as an employee or chattel.”
    
    That one works both ways as well. It’s not much fun to work 80+ hours a week, and then come home to be treated like you have no other purpose than to make money for your wife to spend on things she would like to have.
    
    I think Dr. Helen has keyed into the big issue more than once. The men you would probably like to meet have long ago realized that the entire system is stacked against them, and just write it all off.
    
    At least you apparently had 32 years of a happy marriage. I’ve had a 3 year marriage where the only good thing I can say for it is that at least she didn’t try to twist the knife by asking for alimony.
    
    As for now, hearing my mother pine for grandchildren is a far less frustrating option than the possibility of getting married again. As an engineer, 3 years of being told that I’m “hyper-logical” was pretty much my limit.
    
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Sara (Pal2Pal)
January 25th, 2010 - 01:11

That one works both ways as well. Itâ€™s not much fun to work 80+ hours a week, and then come home to be treated like you have no other purpose than to make money for your wife to spend on things she would like to have.

I have to agree that that would suck big time.

At least you apparently had 32 years of a happy marriage. Iâ€™ve had a 3 year marriage where the only good thing I can say for it is that at least she didnâ€™t try to twist the knife by asking for alimony.

Happy? Sometimes, but not always. I was a military wife for 26 of those 32 years when my husband did 4 tours in Vietnam and was gone more than he was home in the first 15 years or so. It was difficult and sometimes seemed intolerable, but we had common goals and we each had a role in the house. Since I tended to be much more intuitive than he was, I learned early on not to expect him to “sense” my mood or my needs. He was an engineering type and needed gentle prodding to grow into the role of husband and father. Logic isn’t always what is needed. Sometimes just shutting up and letting the other person work through an issue with you as the sounding board works best. We grew compatible and comfortable together. Sometimes he had to give up something, sometimes I had to, but with common goals, it all kind of shakes out. I had to teach him (subtly) that I didn’t need him to come charging in to “fix” everything, but that I did need him to be aware of things that needed fixing and work on those with me, not for me. I think this is a big learning hurdle for lots of men. But, today’s woman makes a big mistake too (I blame the feminists) in thinking that allowing a man to help her is somehow putting her down. My own experience is that men respond well to feeling needed and appreciated, even if it is something simple like showing respect and opening a door.

My two closest friends for the last 35 years are both men. We hang out together, we do projects together, and we get into some knock down drag out debates with each other. A female friend asked one of them one time, “Why do you guys like hanging out with her so much when you are so good looking and could have any girl you want?” and I wasn’t surprised at the answer when he said, “I don’t have to be on with her, I can just be myself.” My female friend didn’t get it.

And isn’t that what most of us want in the end, if we are honest – someone who will love and respect us even when we screw up and all our warts are showing?

But, like I said way back upthread, what do I know? It is a wonder men and women ever get together if all the complaints I read from both sides are true. In the end, it is all going to come down to chemistry. What is wonderful, sexy, beautiful to me, may be just the opposite for someone else. I know that if I feel safe and protected then I’m going to overlook lots of other small or insignificant faults. I know that if a man asks me to do something, I’ll move heaven and earth to try to comply to the best of my ability, but if he expects me to or tells me I must do something, forget it, I run for the hills.

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sestamibi
January 27th, 2010 - 12:35

Wow, this really puts things in perspective. I must be lower than whale s*t since I AM from The Bronx and went to CCNY and University of Minnesota grad school. That didn’t stop my Ivy League/Duke Law School wife–and we’re married almost 13 years to prove it!

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RG
April 5th, 2010 - 19:31

Weird debates. I know I’m overly picky and that the likelihood is high that I’ll spend my life alone. My mental checklist includes: kind, generous, responsible, honest, makes an effort to eat right/exercise, able to hold an intelligent conversation without dominating it or being a doormat, willing to do “fun things” that are cultural in nature. Essentially I think that living with someone should be more pleasant than being alone, or why bother? I’m pretty open across age range, race, and gender. I meet enough people who fit these criteria, not necessarily the most aggressive participants on the dating market, but generally I expect that my best bet will be another woman. I think many of the “a good man is hard to find” will also come to that conclusion.

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Best Jobs To Meet Women
June 27th, 2010 - 09:47

Really informative article.Much thanks again. Keep writing.

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