POWIP Piece of Work In Progress – Former Abode of Dan Collins

19Feb/11149

Wisconsin Teacher Salaries in Context

On average, including benefits, Wisconsin teachers earn about $78k per year. I'm going to leave aside the "for nine months work" part of this, because I think it's been hammered enough. The average household income in Wisconsin is about $52k per year. So, teachers earn about 1.5 times the average household income in Wisconsin when you factor in the benefits, and many of those households are two-income households.

Leaving the issue of benefits out of the equation, teacher salaries in and of themselves average about what the average Wisconsin family earns, even though many of those have more than one wage earner. A two-teacher family employed in Wisconsin public schools (and it's not uncommon), is pulling in double what the average Wisconsin family does, and about treble if you include the benefits disparity.

When Wisconsinites see that, and consider whether schools are successfully teaching their children what they need to make the most of their lives and careers, they're not really very happy with the "sick out" stuff, and they're even less happy about it when they consider what tenure means and how difficult it is to get rid of incompetents and loons within the system. Democratic State Senators playing hooky as well, causing disruptions for families who perhaps already committed to travel plans for the now-delayed summer vacation in order to buy time for OfA, the DNC, AFL-CIO, SEIU and various socialist orgs to bus in their people really doesn't play well, either, particularly in a time of inflation.

WEAC, the Wisconsin Educational Association Council, published the non-personal contact information of all the State Senators but one (pdf). That in itself, as well as the home addresses of the Senators, isn't that big a deal, as it's probably all public information. But take a look at the page. Right above the pdf link there's this graphic:

Erpenbach, from an undisclosed location in Illinois, is the ringleader of the Runners from Walker, and the one whose home address is missing:


As all of you would be aware, that kind of language was considered an invitation to violence just a couple of weeks ago, in the wake of the Giffords shooting. But when you combine that with the (gauzily) veiled threats that some of the Republican Senators have received (of the "we know where you live" variety), the picketing already conducted outside of some of their houses, the pounding on the windows and blocking of doorways in the Capitol, and Obama's very unhelpful "assault on unions" statement, you really do have the kind of bullying that most Wisconsin voters are going to be incensed over.

Stacy and some of his readers have done the math over those WPS employees earning more than 100k per year. He's also covering the ramen menace that I wrote about yesterday.

Dan Collins

Dan Collins is a dude who blogs. He used to blog elsewhere. Now he blogs here.

Website - More Posts

Share
Filed under: Too Lazy to Categorize Leave a comment
Comments (149) Trackbacks (5)
  1. Rev Dr E Buzz
    February 19th, 2011 - 11:07

    I lvoed hearing obama talk about how he wasn’t paying any close attention to what’s going on in Wisc then in the next sentence, showed that he was paying quite close attention to it, accusing Walker of attacking unions.

    This is the left laid bare, all those hidden Communists teaching kids all that great Communist stuff about guilt…I submit the situation in schools is much worse than anyone could imagine.

    billy Ayers has had great influence over pedagogy and philosophy and that’s just the tip of the iceberg…the Communists have been hiding away in the schools, beavering busily about developing their interesting education technqiues.

    To me, it’s scary stuff. I’m old enough to have seen the old school teachers and the influx of the 60′s element, the 60′s element was just getting started as I left HS. Luckily, even though I was a shitty student, those old school guys and gals gave me a tough education, without any of the social studies lefty shit infusing every single subject…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • kyzipster
      February 21st, 2011 - 19:13

      Tea Partiers run scared of the communist bogeyman while they’re really supporting the long-term conservative agenda of destroying all labor rights and privatizing every aspect of our government, hiring unqualified teachers at $10 per hour and milking the taxpayers for billions in profit.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
    • Dolores
      February 25th, 2011 - 16:39

      To Rev. Dr. E. Buzz — AS a former teacher and elementary administrator, I believe the breakdown is not ‘leftie’ stuff in schools, but the total lack of civility we see in our society. I always knew when a misbehaving student was a product of ’60′s culture’ when the child was never at fault and it was always the teacher. Teachers have to fight that plus TV, Internet, texting, BESIDES the hormonal problems that have always been part of growing up. Read a book? Only under duress. The job of a teacher is one of the most daunting there is and also the most important.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  2. Mark A
    February 19th, 2011 - 12:55

    You ‘Sconnies are having all the fun. First you win the Super Bowl (congrats) and now you get to be the first state to take a baseball bat to the teachers union’s kneecap. Swing hard.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  3. jefferson101
    February 19th, 2011 - 16:57

    I really got a kick out of watching the video (Fox?) of the Union folks in the Wisconsin Statehouse chanting “Tax The Rich!”

    What they don’t realize is that most of us working stiffs in this country think that they are “The Rich”.

    They’ve been demanding the sharing of sacrifice and the sharing of the wealth. But amazingly enough, when it’s time to allow them to share a bit of the sacrifice, they start throwing tantrums.

    Gee. I wish I made $60k/year and had a Retirement Plan. ‘Round these parts, it’s do for yourself, or go fashion yourself a tin bill and go pick shit with the sparrows.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Mike
      February 20th, 2011 - 19:01

      Maybe you should have gone to college.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • Eric Griswold
        February 20th, 2011 - 21:59

        People seem so pissed that SOMEONE is still making a middle class living. Like: “we all got screwed, you should too.”

        Can someone explain this? In the Eisenhower years the top marginal tax rate was 91%, and we built Interstates and bridges and schools.
        Kennedy reduced it to a mere 70%, and we still went to the moon and one wage-earner could support a family.

        Now the top tax rate is 35%, we can’t pay for anything, our roads are crumbling and we have to jack nurses and janitors to “close our deficit.”

        Aaaah, it is so subtle. The top 35% bracket kicks in at a mere $375K, so a moderately-successful doctor is put in the same boat as the Koch Brothers with their billions, and will never vote to raise taxes.

        How about a 50% rate over ten million.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • jefferson101
          February 20th, 2011 - 22:29

          In the Eisenhower years, when the top marginal rate was 91%, there were three people paying at that rate.

          And everyone was paying something… Well, not me. I was a “deduction”, such as it was, until the last year of the Johnson Administration. But then I started paying.

          And I have been every since. Do they withhold more from you than you get back?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • kyzipster
      February 21st, 2011 - 19:21

      ..when did public employees become ‘the rich’? Amazing, the war on the middle class has been won, you’re conceding defeat here while supporting your abuser. The support for the middle class in Wisconsin gives me hope but I’m afraid there are too many people out there who have bought into the GOP propaganda, believing that it’s not enough to be a responsible hard worker in this country for a decent life in return, we all have to become Bill Gates.

      You’re suffering from public employee envy because they have good pay and a retirement plan, time to step back and think about that.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  4. meep
    February 19th, 2011 - 16:57

    OT: i don’t see the prayer intentions up yet

    but

    I REALLY REALLY NEED SOME PRAYER WARRIORS

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  5. Meleah
    February 19th, 2011 - 18:01

    Please… go substitute teach for one week and then complain. Did you forget that teachers are required to work from 7:30 until 3:30. That’s an 8 hour day WITH students. In Texas, we serve on at least one campus committee and one district committee. Most of those meetings take place after school hours. Not to mention faculty meetings, parent meetings, continuing education courses, etc. When you finally get home, you get to grade stacks of papers, plan and prepare lessons and answer emails. If you’re a dedicated teacher and you think outside of the textbook parameters you plan & usually exceed your $50-$100 dollar YEARLY budget for classroom materials. The amount of time it takes to be successful teacher goes beyond a 40 hour work week. When I taught it was easily 70 hours. You mention “summers”. Well, teachers get one, maybe 2 days at the end of the year to clean their rooms out, stack furniture so floors can be cleaned and complete end of the year paper work. Most teachers I know spend at least 2 days beyond what’s paid. Most of the time when your at school after hours and in the summers the A/C is OFF. That leaves about 4 weeks off for summers considering you need double the prep time for starting school in mid-August. Most teachers teach summer school to earn extra money for a weeks vacation and take continuing education courses during that time. Every teacher buys breakfast or lunch for students whose families are struggling for one reason or another. I could write pages. Needless to say, I lasted 9 years doing a “job” I loved. I “retired” to stay home with my kids because daycare costs easily took 2/3′s of my salary and teaching easily took double the “paid” time. Someday I will go back. Why, because I loved my kids and the professionals I worked with. You should be thanking EVERY SINGLE WISCONSIN TEACHER you know. Believe me, they are the foundation of your society. You’re reading this aren’t you?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 19th, 2011 - 23:27

      Well Meleah, as a matter of fact I do teach courses during the summertime. Now granted, my students are generally high achieving middle-school and high-schoolers, and highly motivated to get some instruction and insight in subject matter (flight science and aerospace engineering) they can’t get during the school year. You are correct to observe that, like most undertakings in life, one has to work very hard to enjoy success; especially if your individual standards are high…

      But the “rigors” of the job come with accepting the assignment; as with all things there is the usual duality-the good comes with the bad. If the bad weighs too heavily, well, then I suggest taking up a different line of work…,

      And indeed, most professionals put in more than 40 hours a week. My lovely wife is a public prosecutor who enjoys an excellent professional reputation and record of putting crooked lawyers, politicians, and other public officials behind bars. She often puts in more than 40 hours a week. And you know what Meleah? Public school administrators in Wisconsin make more than she does…

      But she truly believes in justice and equality before the law, and chooses to serve the public and accept the fact that she makes less than half of what her private sector counterparts do; private sector counterparts, I might add, who typically work 60+ hours a week.

      And what of our warriors? I spent many months at sea in my day. And you know what? You’re really on duty most of the day, although, I will say that Aviators enjoyed a mandate that they get 8 hours of sleep per day.

      This isn’t about fairness Meleah, it’s about power. And an unholy alliance between public sector employees unions and the politicians they donate to and work to get elected; who then, necessarily, give them all they ask for at the collective bargaining table. In the engineering field, we call this an unstable positive feedback loop, and one need only see what has happened across the country to verify the economic instability of this arrangement.

      “The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service,” Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the National Federation of Federal Employees. Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, “I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place” in the public sector. “A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government.”

      Which is what’s going on in WI right now.

      That’s according to FDR ( http://tiny.cc/xyw65 ), hardly a union-busting opponent of organized labor.

      This isn’t about Democracy, or else the protesters would accept the will of the electorate, and the fact that Walker and his GOP collegues are merely fullfilling their campaign promises. And neither too are the pusillanimous “Flee-baggers”, the Democrats Senators who are breaking the law by their abscence, and who left in order to stall a vote and give the astro-turf, bussed-in, professional protesters, union thugs, and propagandists; all led, financed and organized by the DNC, Obama’s OFA, and “Big Labor” Trumka et al.

      This should be left to the people of WI. The will of the electorate, and assembly politicians who actually live up to their promises and duties to the citizens of WI…

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • snaqwells
        February 20th, 2011 - 12:30

        Excellent points, Bob. I’ve been wondering what people would think if all of a sudden half the military decided to take the day off and head to DC to protest anything in particular; let alone our pay and benefits.

        Teachers have long enjoyed a good public approval rating that is being squandered by this crap.

        For the record, I can’t remember my last 40 hour work week.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Meleah
          February 20th, 2011 - 12:55

          Bob- forgot to mention the Founding Father’s advise to avoid unchecked power by a governing body by simply not attending can be found in the Federalist Papers as well. It’s a tiny paragraph but it’s there none the less.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Bob Reed
          February 20th, 2011 - 20:59

          Meleah,

          I’m going to need you to cite the passage and number where you see such a suggestion in The Federalist. Because I think you’re mistaken-again…

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • kyzipster
          February 22nd, 2011 - 12:16

          Keep supporting Republicans and maybe someday the entire military will be privatized and the taxpayer will no longer be responsible for your retirement and health care benefits, or those of you with ‘one quarter disability’, receiving a disability check while working full time for the Postal Service.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Bob Reed
          February 22nd, 2011 - 13:33

          So kyzipster,

          Have you moved on from bogarting the J to smoking crack, or what.

          The military will never be privatized, and is one of the few large expenditures that is called for in the US constitution.

          I’ll also note that it’s not a union shop, nor can they go on strike…

          And they protect all equally, even individuals like yourself who makes vile and insulting remarks, just for the lulz.

          Vai via, cafone.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • kyzipster
          February 22nd, 2011 - 14:32

          The only thing preventing the GOP from privatizing the military further is the Democratic Party and public opinion. Someday they will brainwash enough people that you’ll be calling the troops freeloaders in the same way you’re bashing other civil servants. Get a clue man, the government is spending billions of our tax dollars on mercenaries right now.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Bob Reed
          February 22nd, 2011 - 16:28

          I sincerely doubt that kysipster. And for what it’s worth, I’ve been called a freeloader already as well as being on a dole known as, “wingnut welfare”, for the past 10 years at progressive leaning sites.

          In fact, I can’t think of one avowed Rethug! or conservative who’s ever done so.

          just my two cents.

          I wish you all the best.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • SconsinPatriot
        February 21st, 2011 - 22:44

        “This isn’t about fairness Meleah, it’s about power. And an unholy alliance between public sector employees unions and the politicians they donate to and work to get elected; who then, necessarily, give them all they ask for at the collective bargaining table. In the engineering field, we call this an unstable positive feedback loop, and one need only see what has happened across the country to verify the economic instability of this arrangement.”

        Well said Bob Read!

        ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. Look up your own district !!!
        The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% towards their own retirement….right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too.
        AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)

        TEACHERS:
        Milwaukee $86,297
        Elmbrook $91,065
        Germantown $83,818
        Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
        Men Falls $81,099
        West Bend $82,153
        Waukesha $92,902
        Sussex $82,956
        Mequon $95,297
        Kettle Mor $87,676
        Muskego $91,341

        STAFF:
        Arrowhead – Bus Mng – $169,525
        Arrowhead – Principal – $152,519
        Grmtwn – Asst Princ – $123,222
        Elmbrk – Burliegh Elemetary – $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
        Madison – Asst Principal – $127,835

        UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):
        – Prof of Bus – $327,828
        -Chancellor Mad- $437,000
        – Prof of Nutritional Science – $254,877 (really??)
        (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)

        How about some other “public servant job” ??? What do they make?
        Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):
        · Garbageman, Mr. N. earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
        · Garbageman, Greg T. who earned $125,598
        · 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000
        · 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000

        MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):
        136 Drivers made more than $70,000
        54 Drivers made more than $80,000
        18 Drivers made more than $90,000
        8 Drivers made more than $100,000
        Top Driver made $117,000
        (Source WTMJ)

        (The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.)

        ‘Sconsin Patriot

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • kyzipster
          February 22nd, 2011 - 12:25

          And on the other side of the argument lie some interesting details. Part of the legislation in question includes a provision that could serve the Koch Bros well, the sale of state owned energy plants. Follow the money and you’ll find the real force behind the so called Tea Party Movement:

          “16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).”

          http://tinyurl.com/4h5jnfh

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Bob Reed
          February 22nd, 2011 - 13:42

          It’s funny how you only see the Koch brothers as possible buyers for any plants sold kyzipster. I’m sure there are plenty of rich limousine liberals that could be in that market as well.

          Although, these days they’re mostly trying to suck up that Government lucre, as usual, by getting involved in the “green energy” swindle that Mr. Obama and the national Democrats are underwriting by subsidy.

          You know, like Solyndra in CA, who grabbed 500+million of the spendulus bucks, and instead of creating jobs are eliminating them instead…

          http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/22/panel-green-jobs-company-endorsed-by-obama-and-biden-squandered-535-million-in-stimulus-money/

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • kyzipster
          February 22nd, 2011 - 14:36

          There could be plenty of rich liberals who will invest in private plants, there’s often no difference between the two parties with the exception of Labor and the Democrats obligation to them. However, I’ve yet to see any connection to an organization funded by Soros that’s carting Teapartiers to a counter protest though or another one making major campaign contributions to the Teaparty governor.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Bob Reed
          February 22nd, 2011 - 16:32

          There’s no question that you’re right about Soros not funding his ideological adversaries travels kysipster.

          But I’d hazard a guess that he’s payed the tab of a few of the out-of-staters headed to WI over the last few days.

          It’s his money to spend as he sees fit.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • SconsinPatriot
        February 21st, 2011 - 22:49

        Please excuse my mispelling
        of your name….first day with my new fingers, LOL

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
  6. Enoch_Root
    February 19th, 2011 - 18:06

    I have 5 kids. We yanked the 3 that were in the pubic schools here in Wisconsin – all 3. You know why? Because the teachers were for sh*t. bunch of busy bodied ninnies. Go copy-paste somewhere else. I’ll shed no tears for you. Try running a business. Then cry me a river. Pathetic.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Meleah
      February 19th, 2011 - 18:40

      Cry you a river? Hardly. We’ve run a business–more than one and we homeschool our kids. WHY… because of LAZY parents who don’t discipline their kids and let DISNEY babysit. “Busy bodied ninnies”…. that’s a metaphor for “teachers getting in my business”. Good for you pulling your kids out. At least your not one of the many who expect the world and never even pokes their head in the classroom, much less the school building. I don’t want your tears. Pathetic? Have you tried to teach in public schools? You do that and then, I assure you, I’ll cry you a river. Demoralizing teachers… that’s pathetic. Believe me, I don’t have to copy and paste. Every word is my own. I lived it and I’m proud of it. Prayers in Texas going up for Wisconsin teachers. There are better ways to cut a budget than through education and manipulating laws.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • Enoch_Root
        February 19th, 2011 - 18:54

        we also home school one of ours. i don’t expect the world at all. I want them to teach. I don’t need them to feed my kids. I sure as s**t don’t want them introducing all manner of leftist crap into their heads… such as Global Goreming… sorry, but I expect my kids’ teachers to be able to reason. Instead they themselves are bullies. And they themselves are intolerant. And they themselves think it is their business to indoctrinate. I respect you for having the cajones to run a couple businesses. But if that is the case, I would submit you already know it is far more difficult to make it on your own merits than to make it to tenure. I would also submit that 70 hours per week is pretty standard for business-owners. So, yeah… cry me a river. We have no money in the budget for lavish pensions and cadillac health insurance. There is no manipulation of the law. Collective Bargaining is not a right. It is a privilege. And if you lived in wisconsin you’d know what run-away public sector employees have… it’s a helluva a lot more than anyone in the private sector would ever expect to find. Trough… empty. Let the piggies join the rest of us.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • jefferson101
          February 19th, 2011 - 19:57

          Oh, noes! The poor Teachers have to work EIGHT WHOLE HOURS a day? And they have do do it with the cheeldren present, too!

          Why can I not avoid quoting Kurtz? “The Horror! The Horror!”

          If it’s that bad, they must be being compensated awfully well, to keep on teaching them little or nothing for 12 years. If the Teachers are really that smart, why don’t they just go get a real job and deal with everything the same way the rest of us have to.

          My job sucks most days, too. I have to deal with the products of the current Education system, who usually can’t find their backside with both hands and a GPS System.

          And I don’t get a fancy pension or $60k or more a year for it, either.

          And FWIW, like most Technical specialists, I have a lot more “education” in my field than most teachers do in theirs. I couldn’t just sign up for some courses and type out some Bullshit. I have to perform. Every day. And I don’t get farging “Tenure” either. I’ve got 22 years with my current employer, and I could hit the street tomorrow, if I screw up. (Note I said “Screw UP”, not “Screw the Students”!)

          I feel for the poor Teachers, but somehow I just can’t reach them.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Matt J.
          February 19th, 2011 - 20:40

          YOU are one of the ‘piggies’. Only an ignorant pig could — as you just did — deride the scientific evidence behind AGW are “globul goreming”.

          You are a perfect example of the failure of our education system, that you choose to ignore all the very sound scientific evidence, accusing those who teach you the reality of being ‘leftists’.

          You won’t be around to hear it when your grandchildren curse you and your entire generation for ruining their future, but you won’t escape punishment for it.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Matt J.
        February 19th, 2011 - 20:43

        Yes, there are much better ways than cutting education. Unfortunately, politicians have been pretty consistent about avoiding those better ways. But Republican politicians have long been the worst about it. They have been so consistent about attacking education, they have convinced many of us that it is part of their evil plot: keep the voters ignorant, and they will fall for Republican sound bites.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Enoch_Root
          February 19th, 2011 - 21:29

          most teachers I have either had or have met have the IQ of a nugget of poop. There, I said it… thems the dummist er teh dumb. The Rocks fer Jocks of the lot.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        • Bob Reed
          February 19th, 2011 - 23:54

          Sure Matt…propaganda…

          Keep voters ignorant. Got it…

          Like, you know, making up a phony unprovable theory about man causing the earth’s climate to change, so that you can have control over everyone’s life; in the name of saving the planet!

          You’re a partisn troooooooo! believer! Matt. And you’re also sadly mistaken.

          You’ll need to do better than that here.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • KillTruck
        February 21st, 2011 - 12:19

        I’ve been cautioning in vain against confusing the majority of public school teachers nationwide with their union bosses and the a**holes in WI for the last week. You’re not helping.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
  7. fishman
    February 19th, 2011 - 21:10

    Dan, the average teacher in Wisconsin earns, including benefits, $109,000 per year. Their health\dental family policies alone cost almost $30K per year and the insurance company, WEA TRUST, is owned by WEAC. What a scam.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  8. yosh
    February 19th, 2011 - 21:10

    I have a friend who is a retired teacher. He once told me the two things he liked about teaching was July and August. He now spends the winters playing golf in Florida and lives very nice on his taxpayers pension.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  9. soupy
    February 19th, 2011 - 21:19

    You guys are great. You make up stuff and another one swears to it.

    The blind leading the blind, the ignorant preaching to the simple.

    My mother was a teacher for 30 years. She taught low IQ students. It looks like you guys were student so hers.

    My wife wanted to take up teaching when we were first married but I had to tell her no. The salary for her would have made us eligible for food stamps.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • fishman
      February 19th, 2011 - 21:35

      You must not be living in Wisconsin. I like teachers. I think they should be paid well, and they are. What I would like to hear from the teachers is a warm “thank you” for your generous support Wisconsin taxpayers.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
    • jefferson101
      February 19th, 2011 - 21:36

      Tell us about it!

      Since you were apparently too lazy to work, someone in your family should have.

      It’s a bummer that you would have had to support yourselves instead of collecting Food Stamps, but life really suck sometimes when you are not living in a Socialist Paradise.

      And so it goes.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 19th, 2011 - 23:49

      Facts are stubborn things. Deal…

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  10. joseph stevens
    February 19th, 2011 - 21:39

    i have read the blog and have read the comments. i think we can all agree that the teacher have it tough, even though it seems to me they are pretty well compensated. i also think we can all agree that unions have done some good work as far as work place safety and compensation and the like goes. i think this whole thing goes to power. the state wants it and the union seems to have a good deal of it. i happen to live in a right to work state. we work side by side with union folks. the union can walk when it decides to, but the world does not stop because they do, life tends to go on. seems to me that in Wisconsin life seems to have stopped for a few day at least in the schools and probably garbage pickup. not a terrific thing in my opinion. seems the senate has taken a walk as well , also not a good thing , in my opinion.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  11. Meleah
    February 19th, 2011 - 21:43

    I can see why business owners would rather not have unions. Usually it’s greed. Yes, business owners ‘may’ work 70 hour weeks but the money usually follows suit–not so with teachers. Follow the money trail and I can guarantee you won’t find the teachers skipping down the streets of Europe. Many business owners take lavish vacations and yet pay their employees minimum wage with no raise for years. Why?They justify with excuses of ‘bad education’. It’s called human rights, both in the public and private sector. Collective bargaining is recognized as a human right by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.– “In 1962, President Kennedy signed an executive order giving public-employee unions the right to collectively bargain with federal government agencies.[6] In February 2011, Wisconsin governor Scott Walker was trying to limit the collective bargaining rights of state employees. The change in the state’s laws would effectively end collective bargaining for nearly all public employees.[7] His plan would “require higher pension and health insurance contributions and remove bargaining rights except in a limited way over wages.”[8] In response to critics, Walker stated that he will ready the Wisconsin National Guard in the event that they are needed to prevent any disruption in state services due to union walkouts.[8] The bargaining changes would exempt police, firefighters, and state troopers.[9][10]” (Wickpedia/Collective Bargaining)–Sounds like the Wisconsin governor would like to run a dictatorship using the state legislature, National Guard, police, fire fighters and state troopers to enact policy rather than live in a democracy. As we say in Texas, he’s trying to throw a wide loop with a short rope.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 19th, 2011 - 23:48

      How can it be a dictatorship Meleah, when the Governor was elected, in free and fair elections, based on a platform of, among other things, fiscal austerity, reigning in the public employee unions, and making WI a right to work state in order to encourage business to relocate, instead of flee from, the state.

      It’s called human rights, both in the public and private sector. Collective bargaining is recognized as a human right by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

      Um, Meleah? Just what is this supposed declaration of human rights? Is it a UN or Euro-socialist thing?

      Humans, human nature, and societies haven’t really changed that much over the millenia. And the founders of our nation did a pretty good job of outlining an individual’s “rights” based on the enlightenment concepts of natural law; regardless of their inability to agree to abolish slavery at the Constitutional convention. So I sumbit to you that owing to the constancy of human nature, and the superb enumeration of rights in our Constitution, Declaration of Independance, “The Federalist”, and their correspondance that no augmentation or updating of those “rights” by any non-American legislative or constitutional authority is germane in today’s US.

      I might suggest you study US History, the actual and not revised for trans-nation multi-cultural post-modern utility, and realize what “rights” we have.

      Because, just a hint, collective bargaining isn’t among them…

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
        • Bob Reed
          February 20th, 2011 - 10:38

          The NLRA was yet another abuse, and quoestionable interpretation, of the commerce clause; like Obamacare is.

          The SCOTUS Justices didn’t find against it, as well as many other New Deal measures, because Roosevelt intimidated them with talk of using his rubber-stamp congress to pack the SCOTUS with judges amenable to his legislative initiatives.

          With all due respect…

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Meleah
        February 20th, 2011 - 09:20

        Pestilential knowledge of history and attempts to elicit a higher patriotic consciousness is nothing more than an overused and redundant argument.

        I’m quite familiar with The Federalist Papers. Actually, I read them every night, along with my Bible. Have you forgotten they were written in response to those who argued against forming a United States of America? Your response leads me to believe that you have not read The Federalist Papers in full or at all. Are you so quick to forget history? Alexander Hamilton addressed the WI issue in The Federalist No. 28. “Idea of Restraining the Legislative Authority in Regard to the Common Defense.” I’ll let you read it yourself. The Constitution, Federalist Papers and Bill of Rights all have one fundamental democratic tenet—“government for the people, by the people, of the people, shall not perish from the earth”-Abraham Lincoln. There is a way to pass laws without bypassing the very citizens they will affect. It certainly is not by passing a bill without allowing those people to have their voices heard. The Govenors actions are completely AGAINST the ideals set forth in The Federalist Papers.

        Additionally, I can only assume that you have 1) never been on the receiving end of the constancy of human nature, 2) have not read one of the oldest historical books describing the constancy of human nature and/or 3) forgotten that highly important document written in 1791 by two Founding Fathers–The Bill of Rights. I am a patriot through and through but I will not cow-tail to ANY government or person that does not believe in the most basic of human rights—FREEDOM. Freedom to speak, freedom of press and assembly, freedom from tyranny—HINT—we collectively bargain every time we vote.

        Thomas Jefferson inspired The Bill of Rights and said, “A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference.” Hmmm…. a Founding Father augmenting and updating our Constitution! For shame! And even citing “every government on Earth”—I’m sure Thomas Jefferson’s words won’t be good enough for you though.

        I believe that most of our Founding Father’s based many of these freedoms on their religious belief and for me moral law to me is the highest in the land. You don’t need to suggest what history I study. We study plenty of history at our house—accurate and from all sides. We’ve even traced our family history back to our first president. I certainly don’t need your history lessons. You might considering immigrating to another country—our flag is not big enough to cover your selfish, shameful and just plain stupid rhetoric. Was that wordy enough for you? That was a rhetorical question. I don’t need a response.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Bob Reed
          February 20th, 2011 - 11:14

          Meleah, I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here, or where you’ve gotten your mistaken set of facts from.

          Where to begin…

          Elections are not the same as collective bargaining, on any level. In our democratic republic we elect representatives to act as proxies for our will, the will of the people, who through our consent they have the legitimate right to govern. Collective bargaining, on the other hand, is simply binding contract negotiations, where one party is generally represented en masse. So you’re off base here.

          And the bill of rights was propesed by James Madison, and advocated by folks such as Patrick Henry, Elbridge Gerry, John Adams and John Hancock. Jefferson wasn’t involved Meleah, or even in the country at that time! And Hamilton was a Federalist, who opposed the bill of rights on the grounds that he found them to be superfluous.

          And speaking of The Federalist , what does Federalist 28 have to do with the situation in WI at all?!? It is an argument against limiting the power of the legislature, the threat to the common good stemming from excessive restraint on legislative authority. That has nothing to do with the issues in WI, nor with the scurrilous behavior of the WI Democrat Senators who are shirking their responsibility to represent their constituents, and take part in the Democratic processes they were elected to serve in.

          I’m sorry if I upset you, but you are clearly out of your depth in this discussion, and are mistaken about some of the notions you have regarding matters of fact and US history.

          Many of our founders did base their ideas of freedom on the tenets of their faith, which is an ideal that I can share, being a Catholic Christian myself. But they chose to reference the enlightenment idea of “natural law” time and time again, in order to keep the arguments more secular in nature so as not to conflict with the ideas of religious freedom they wanted to hard-wire into our republic; I also can’t help but think they were also extrapolating from Christ’s admonition to the Pharisees, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s”.

          But I can also agree that if there was more conrete morality in society today, instead of the transnational, multi-cultural, situational ethics, “it’s all good” mentality, then we would have less strife in our country. Here I think we can find common ground. But on this issue in WI, maybe not.

          Except we should be able to agree that this is a Wisconsin issue, and outside forces should not interfere; which up to this point includes ouside forces bussed in by the DNC, OFA, and the national labor unions.

          I’m sorry to have upset you, and extend you my regards.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Dolores
        February 25th, 2011 - 16:46

        Scott Walker was elected by the support of BIG business, especially in the form of the Koch Brothers. THEY are trying, generally quietly, to control the US by using corporate funding. That’s not Democracy in my book.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
    • fishman
      February 20th, 2011 - 08:57

      not so mon cheri; about Europe. I know an instructor of GED at MATC (tech college) who’s convention took her to Pari 1st call air, 1st class hotel, taxpayer footed.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • Meleah
        February 20th, 2011 - 11:56

        Bob, no need to apologize. I won’t split hairs with you on collective bargaining versus democratic vote. I certainly realize the differences and merely wish to point out the inherent democratic nature of both.

        As for Jefferson, he did in fact influence the writing of the Bill of Rights– http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html One need not be in a country to advise council. Your inference that I am “out of my depth here” does not make it fact. The former being case in point.

        Additionally, Federalist 28 by Publius (Alexander Hamilton) states, “…that the idea of governing at all times by the simple force of law (which we have been told is the only admissible principle of republican government), has no place but in the reveries of those political doctors whose sagacity disdains the admonitions of experimental instruction.” My assertion put simply is that just because the WI Governor has the law and legislative process on his side does not mean he is correct in forging ahead.

        As far as “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s …” I refer to Luke 6:31 and Martin Luther King Jr., “A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God.”(http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html)

        No Bob, we have no common ground. You simply misunderstand the facts on which our country was based. I suggest you go back and read The Federalist Papers and Letter From a Birmingham Jail. I think you will gladly find your position addressed in both.

        My response here should suffice for my comment under today’s blog video post. If not, consider yourself spared from my blog comment ramblings. I have a family to raise and no more time to quibble with you over your perceived enlightenment for the rest of us. I for one am not fooled. Good day fellow sparer of antiquated history. :)

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Bob Reed
          February 20th, 2011 - 21:17

          Meleah,
          I’m not sure what you’re reading into the text of Federalist 28, but it’s pretty clear to me, and to historians of repute, that this particular essay is discussing the government’s need to resort to force of arms, as opposed to only the rule of law, in dealing with seditious mischeif or open insurrection.

          Why don’t you tell me what you think it means; because Hamilton’s intent seems clear.

          And with all due respect, I don’t see how any of Dr. King’s letters from the Birmingham jail influenced the founders of our nation.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  12. Tom
    February 20th, 2011 - 00:41

    This is a poor comparison… and ignorant people will soak it up…. You compare the average salary + Benefits to an average salary and NO benefits… so take that 52K a year average salary then find out the averagewhat all companies pay in benefits, to include medical, dental, pension, 401K contribution etc…. then compare.. come on people

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 20th, 2011 - 01:57

      Actually Tom, the comparison is the salary component of the average teacher’s salary, and not the entire compensation, with the average household income in WI.

      So it’s actually a good comparison, better than the widely touted Soros funded EPI pseudo-study-cum-propaganda that’s been cited to death in this week’s discussions; the one that attempts comparisons based on education level alone instead of comparable job description, managerial level, etc…

      And a much better than your reading comprehension, it seems.

      You need to do a better job than that here…

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  13. Martin
    February 20th, 2011 - 13:42

    The “facts” presented are misleading. The median family income for Wisconsin of $52,000 per year, which is taken from the Census Bureau database, does not include the payroll benefits that those households earn (like retirement and health insurance). That is clearly stated in the database notes. Sampling the Wisconsin teachers’ pay rates on Datamine where individual teachers’ and administrators’ salaries and benefits packages are disclosed it looks like they have benefits that run about 25% of the compensation package which would put their salaries at about $58,500. That is not excessive at all for people who for the most part have advanced degrees and many years of experience. In private industry benefit packages typically run in the 35% range in my experience.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  14. Michaela
    February 20th, 2011 - 13:55

    Why is it that any time “teachers” are brought in to a conversation, some folks feel the need to insult the entire profession? The idea that I should kneel down and kiss the feet of the taxpayer is ridiculous! I chose to become a teacher because I felt that I had a talent for the job, just like an electrician, or a barber make a decision about what they do with their lives. If you choose to run your own business, fabulous, I applaud your efforts.

    Once you make the decision to pursue your carreer in teaching, you don’t magically land in a classroom with a small group of cooperative children waiting for you to enlighten them.

    This is what I did: I had already earned a BS in chemistry so, thankfully, I did not have to start from scratch. I applied to and was accepted into graduate school, spent two years in a full time program, completed countless hours of observations and then two student teaching positions. I was hired at a middle school (thank goodness because Joe taxpayer did not pay for my education and I had lots of loans to pay back). I love love love teaching and have not stopped working towards being the very best teacher for the 8th graders who count on me. After earning my Masters in Teaching, I took on National Board Certification and was certified in 2006. I currently hold national certification and have earned the equivalent of 3 more Master’s degrees in course and training credits. Our pay maxes out at Mater’s plus 90 so I have not received any compensation for continuing to improve my skills. Our cost of living raises, that were voted in by the taxpayers of our state, were put on hold the year I began teaching and never reinstated…with our new budget, our salaries are likely to be reduced more. The state promised to compensate me for National Board Certification but that is now on the chopping block and will be a $5000 a year cut in my pay if passed.

    I continue to work my fanny off each and every day because it is my talent and my chosen career and I feel the need to earn my paycheck!!
    I am educated and dedicated and should be compensated on par with other professions that require the same level of commitment to excellence. I am not going to appologise for making more money than the “average” person in my state, the average person made decisions that were different from my own and may not have taken their own education as seriously as I did mine…I had no greater advantage than anyone else, I siezed opprtunities that I made for myself!

    I teach 140 students per day for about 6.5 hours. I take care of my classroom and my supplies. I read, practice and learn new thing constantly. I plan all of my curriculum, create assessments, plan activities and often buy the supplies. I won’t even get into the assessments and grading piece! I have an average of 28 kids per class and they are amazing (even the kids with behavior disorders) but I struggle to reach each and every one because I just don’t have enough time in a day. I am the head of our behavior supports program and serve on two other comittees focused on student learning improvement. I meet with colleauges on my own time on an almost daily basis. I go to my student’s plays and their sporting events. I listen to and support those who are changing foster homes once again or just had a parent go to jail. I know the state standards by heart and have only the better part of a school year with my 8th graders before the high stakes test determines the supports we receive from the state.

    I attend national and local conferences, often on my own dime and just want to get better at what I do. As our school district’s “Teacher of the Year”, I want to be worthy of the title (I did get a little plaque to put on the wall..it was made by the math teacher in the room next door because he is a teacher who also owns his own business, hmmm??)

    I have gone on and on here…probably boring all of you to death! No one really wants to know the details of anyone elses job…if you did you wouldn’t be able to say horrible things about them. It is easier to look in from the outside and assume that we are all hanging around the staff room while our students watch Disney movies and complete word searches!! I am proud as hell to do what I do every day…it is complex, challenging, exciting, stressful and really important work.

    I would be happy to have anyone come in to my classroom for a week and see what it is that I do to “earn” my wages…I don’t have an educational assistant so your help would be greatly appreciated! Now I must shopping on my “day off” and pick up the supplies that I need so that my students will really understand heat transfer…kind of a coincidence after all of the hot air coming out of some of the posts I have read here!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Enoch_Root
      February 20th, 2011 - 14:21

      you sounds dedicated enough. and that is good. doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the debate though.

      Gov’t Teachers still suck compared to their compensation packages. If you were interested in competition and the cream rising to the top of your profession, you would welcome Mr. Walker’s proposal.

      But I would guess you are not for people being paid on a merit based system… or fired for being sub-par.

      I can honestly say that through 19 years of formal education, I have had maybe 5 excellent teachers. the rest? barely serviceable. zombies, really… bought, paid for, and on the government dole. oh, and intellectually lazy as well.

      And that is very sad!

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • Michaela
        February 20th, 2011 - 15:36

        I have noticed that your comments don’t seem to have anything to do with the debate…you hate teachers, you have decided that all teachers are horrible lazy human beings. You do not respect teaching as a profession so your bias seems well documented. It seems that your education has completely failed you and for that I am sorry.

        Comments like this: “most teachers I have either had or have met have the IQ of a nugget of poop. There, I said it… thems the dummist er teh dumb. The Rocks fer Jocks of the lot.” are just cheap shots and contain no substance. I don’t just “seem” dedicated enough, I am dedicated and the dabate should not be a personal attack but an educated discussion of peoples rights and responsibilities.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Enoch_Root
          February 20th, 2011 - 15:53

          Michaela – we would have to begin at exploring the difference between “rights” and “privileges”.

          This seems so rudimentary to me as to indicate we might not get anywhere.

          But I will attempt it.

          FOR MICHAELA:

          Q: Is Collective Bargaining a right or a privilege?

          Q: If it is a right, please show me where it is established. If it is a privilege, then who granted it in Wisconsin?

          And, yes, I am biased. I do dislike teachers on the whole. I do find them lazy and intellectually-lacking. I find most of them well-intentioned do-gooders – with not much else to offer. But so what?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • KillTruck
      February 21st, 2011 - 12:28

      “Why is it that any time “teachers” are brought in to a conversation, some folks feel the need to insult the entire profession?”

      I’ve always wondered that, but you’ve done a lot to clear it up for me. You really are a wonderful teacher.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  15. Meleah
    February 20th, 2011 - 17:13

    And what exactly does it say about you Mr. Root that you cannot look this stuff up yourself? Way to stereotype and OFFEND an entire group of people based on your experiences with a few. I’d rather be a well intentioned do-gooder than a pious exterminate of democracy.

    See the website for complete laws. For some reason this section was hard to copy and paste:

    State of Wisconsin: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0111.pdf

    EMPLOYMENT RELATIONS:

    111.815 Duties of state. (1) In the furtherance of this subchapter,
    the state shall be considered as a single employer and
    employment relations policies and practices throughout the state
    service shall be as consistent as practicable. The office shall
    negotiate and administer collective bargaining agreements except
    that the department of health services, subject to the approval of
    the federal centers for medicare and medicaid services to use collective
    bargaining as the method of setting rates for reimbursement
    of home care providers, shall negotiate and administer collective
    bargaining agreements entered into with the collective
    bargaining unit specified in s. 111.825 (2g).111.825 (1m), (2) (f),
    and (2g), the office is responsible for the employer functions of the
    executive branch under this subchapter, and shall coordinate its
    collective bargaining activities with operating state agencies on
    matters of agency concern. The legislative branch shall act upon
    those portions of tentative agreements negotiated by the office
    that require legislative action. With respect to the collective bargaining
    units specified in s. 111.825 (1m), the University of Wisconsin
    Hospitals and Clinics Board is responsible for the
    employer functions under this subchapter. With respect to the collective
    bargaining unit specified in s. 111.825 (2) (f), the governing
    board of the charter school established by contract under s.
    118.40 (2r) (cm) is responsible for the employer functions under
    this subchapter. With respect to the collective bargaining unit specified
    in s. 111.825 (2g), the department of health services is
    responsible for the employer functions of the executive branch
    under this subchapter.
    (2) In the furtherance of the policy under s. 111.80 (4), the
    director of the office shall, together with the appointing authorities
    or their representatives, represent the state in its responsibility as
    an employer under this subchapter except with respect to negotiations
    in the collective bargaining units specified in s. 111.825
    (1m), (2) (f), and (2g). The director of the office shall establish and policies and practices throughout the state service.
    (3) With regard to collective bargaining activities involving
    employees who are assistant district attorneys, the director of the
    office shall maintain close liaison with the secretary of administration.
    History: 1977 c. 196; 1983 a. 27 s. 2200 (15); 1985 a. 42; 1989 a. 31; 1995 a. 27;
    2001 a. 16, 104; 2003 a. 33; 2009 a. 28.
    111.82 Rights of employees. Employees shall have the
    right of self−organization and the right to form, join or assist labor
    organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of
    their own choosing under this subchapter, and to engage in lawful,
    concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or
    other mutual aid or protection. Employees shall also have the
    right to refrain from any or all of such activities.
    History: 1971 c. 270; 1995 a. 27.

    ***111.825 Collective Bargaining Units.***

    (1) It is the legislative
    intent that in order to foster meaningful collective bargaining,
    units must be structured in such a way as to avoid excessive fragmentation
    whenever possible. In accordance with this policy, collective
    bargaining units for employees in the classified service of
    the state, except employees in the collective bargaining units specified
    in sub. (1m), are structured on a statewide basis with one collective
    bargaining unit for each of the following occupational
    groups:
    (a) Administrative support.
    (b) Blue collar and nonbuilding trades.
    (c) Building trades crafts.
    (cm) Law enforcement.
    (d) Security and public safety.
    (e) Technical.
    (f) Professional:
    1. Fiscal and staff services.
    2. Research, statistics and analysis.
    3. Legal.
    4. Patient treatment.
    5. Patient care.
    6. Social services.
    7. Education.
    8. Engineering.
    9. Science.
    (1m) Collective bargaining units for employees in the classified
    service of the state who are employed by the University of
    Wisconsin Hospitals and Clinics Board are structured with one
    collective bargaining unit for each of the following occupational
    groups:
    (a) Clerical and related.
    (b) Blue collar and nonbuilding trades.
    (c) Building trades crafts.
    (d) Security and public safety.
    (e) Technical.
    (2) Collective bargaining units for employees in the unclassified
    service of the state shall be structured with one collective bargaining
    unit for each of the following groups:
    (a) The program, project and teaching assistants of the University
    of Wisconsin−Madison and the University of Wisconsin−Extension.
    (b) The program, project and teaching assistants of the University
    of Wisconsin−Milwaukee.
    (c) The program, project and teaching assistants of the Universities
    of Wisconsin−Eau Claire, Green Bay, La Crosse, Oshkosh,
    Parkside, Platteville, River Falls, Stevens Point, Stout, Superior
    and Whitewater.
    (d) Assistant district attorneys.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  16. Bob
    February 20th, 2011 - 17:22

    I think your math is pretty misleading:
    A teacher has an advanced degree – please compare average teachers income against other professional positions that have require a Master’s degree – nursing, business, attorney, etc. By comparison, teachers don’t make nearly as much. It’s not reasonable to compare a teacher to the average family income that would include Taco Bell employees, for example.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  17. Enoch_Root
    February 20th, 2011 - 17:45

    Bob – your suggestion that degree should determine pay is telling. In the private sector it has to do with things like competence, performance, competition.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  18. Meleah
    February 20th, 2011 - 18:44

    Sir–I believe we established that in an earlier comment exchange. I believe it is a right. See my response…”Collective bargaining is recognized as a human right by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.– ‘In 1962, President Kennedy signed an executive order giving public-employee unions the right to collectively bargain with federal government agencies.’” (wikipedia/collective bargaining).

    Yes, I know about the lame duck legislative session. Funny how when the tables were turned in December “foul” was shouted from the rooftops. Despite what your comments lead others to believe, here are the facts: “Two outgoing Democratic State Senators casted the deciding vote to STALL overdue labor agreements.” Anyone want to cheer for those two Democratic senators like you are your Governor? stophttp://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Wisconsin_state_employee_contracts_fail_in_lame_duck_session

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • jefferson101
      February 20th, 2011 - 19:40

      And something the United Nations cooked up among themselves is relevant to the United States Constitution in what way?

      I’m sure that the Organization of Islamic States had declared that prevention of Blasphemy against Allah is a “Human Right”, too. As is the “Right” of females to wear the Burquah and not to be educated.

      You people just don’t get it. I’m not Arabic. I’m not Islamic, and I’m not a citizen of the United Nations. Someone previously commented that you seemed to speak Gibberish. And I have to ask. What Nation do the Gibberers come from? Y’all talk funny, and you clearly don’t think you are Americans. So where are you a Citizen of?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
    • Enoch_Root
      February 20th, 2011 - 20:17

      You have established only that you *believe* it is a right. in your opinion, you believe it is a right. It is, however, not at all a right. no more than the “right to drive.” that is, it is a privilege. and privileges can be allowed for and also restricted (legally so).

      Also, can you tell me whether Federal Employees have this so-called “right?” They do not, in fact, have the privilege of Collective Bargaining.

      I like to think that we Cheeseheads were very, very kind for allowing this privilege for so long. In fact, until the circumstances were so grave as to be suicidal to keep allowing for them. But piggies get fat. And they demand their food in sums they have been accustomed to. And when you remind them that the farmer is still in charge they do make a lot of noise. He cares for them, you see… but only within his means. And surely not at the expense of the other animals.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  20. Martin
    February 20th, 2011 - 19:07

    Regarding all the talk about how merit pay should be criteria for teachers’ salaries…I would agree if there was some rational way to make those judgements. Using test scores alone is inadequate. If a teacher gets classes with several students who have been “passed along” despite their inadequacies he or she is in a terrible position to bring them to a satisfacory level in the new higher grade. If a teacher gets just a few disruptive students in his or her class, that can bring all teaching to a grinding halt. Our stance on social promotions and on not stimatizing a poor performer makes it extremely likely that some teachers will be burdened by poor quality students more than other teachers. Our stance against punishment of disruptive students makes it similary likely that some teachers will have to devote extraordinary time to dealing with a few troublemakers. Those situations make simple test score ratings useless and unfair. An adequate personal in-class review of teaching skills by school administration is beyond the staffing levels of all school districts and would be extremely expensive since it would require multiple visits over each year in each class by the evaluators. Would that it were otherwise, but making judgements on teacher performance is a very tricky thing and, in my mind, rife with chances for inequity.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Enoch_Root
      February 20th, 2011 - 20:19

      Sorry Martin. Every performance can be measured.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • Meleah
        February 20th, 2011 - 21:04

        “WEAC is calling for the creation of a statewide educator evaluation system with rigorous standards focused on what educators do. The plan allows for test scores to be used in conjunction with other measures to inform decisions and strategies that lead to improved teaching practices.” :
        http://www.weac.org/Libraries/PDF/Bold_Reforms_-_FAQ.sflb.ashx

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Bob Reed
          February 20th, 2011 - 21:34

          Of course they’re offering just about anything now to avoid the proposed legislation being passed.

          What’s wrong with having the union be recertified by an free and fair ballot yearly? What’s wrong with giving individuals the right to opt out of paying union dues and actively belonging to the local union. I mean, that’s freedom , right?

          And what’s wrong with Walker et al fulfilling the promises they ran on? That they were elected on this past November in free and open elections…

          And their “right” to collective bargaining is not being taken away in entirety; only with respect to pensions and benefits.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  21. Jud Lounsbury
    February 20th, 2011 - 19:25

    The 52K average is pro-rated for the summer break. Also the average family income you are referencing is not accurate.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  22. Bob Reed
    February 20th, 2011 - 21:44

    Gettysburg was a battle in a war over federalism and states’ rights — in this case the dubious and odious “right” to treat human beings as chattel — a cause that has given the phrase a notorious name for over a century and a half. Madison (ironically, named after a Founder and drafter of the Constitution) is also a battle over states’ rights — in this case the right of a state to rein in the new slaveholders — public employee unions who extort taxpayers to give them better wages and benefits than those who provide their funding by threatening to shut down vital services if their demands aren’t met. And this time, the new slavemasters are being supported by Washington.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/wisconsin-whats-the-right-analogy/

    Emphasis mine, needs no comment…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
  23. Welle
    February 21st, 2011 - 01:08

    I’m afraid you need to put your numbers in context (or get them right in the first place). Wisconsin teachers appear to make more than the other workers in the state in part because they have more education that most of the other workers in the state. 59% of public employees in WI have a college degree. 38% of private sector workers do.

    By comparing averages alone, you’re lining up teacher salaries next to Burger King employees and waiters.

    This report, by the Economic Policy Institute, compared public sector wages to private sector wages, but controlled for education level. (http://epi.3cdn.net/9e237c56096a8e4904_rkm6b9hn1.pdf) Turns out public sector employees, including teachers, make CONSIDERABLY less than their private sector counterparts with comparable degrees.

    Taken all together, the average public sector employee makes $20,000 less than their private sector equivalent (whose total benefits and compensation are around $80k).

    WI teachers – and other public sector workers – SHOULD earn more than the rest of the state because they have been forced to invest a great deal in their educational preparation in order to hold their positions. Whereas the rest of the state has not had to do that, by comparison.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 21st, 2011 - 12:19

      Welle,
      You’re late the party, so to speak, my man. That Soros-funded EPI study was fisked clean several days ago, and exposed for the stilted propaganda that it is.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  24. Ross
    February 21st, 2011 - 08:31

    I’ve worked for the school system in Nebraska for 15 years. My compensation (including benefits) isn’t close to that of Wisconsin teachers with the same experience/educational level. It takes roughly 80 private sector jobs to support one public job. You can only tax the public so much before they “revolt.” Aside from that, if the state funds are not there, they are not there. Change isn’t easy and facing today’s harsh economic realities world-wide is no fun. The difference between me and many others out there is I wouldn’t tolerate my senators running to another state, colleagues “calling in sick” and shutting down the educational process and the rest of the nonsense/grandstanding going on. Wisconsin teachers, update your resume’s and apply elsewhere… when you see what other states are offering in comparison you will feel lucky to receive the compensation you do. Time to share the world’s pain, quit crying and scale back… get back to the business of educating America’s children.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Enoch_Root
      February 21st, 2011 - 08:36

      Ross – if you’re for real, you are refreshing… I will call you a TEACHER.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
      • Michaela
        February 21st, 2011 - 16:42

        Ross- I can only assume that you are a great teacher with the experience that you have and I actually think you make some good points. In my earlier post I touched on the budget cuts in my state and the loss in my pay. Of course, I don’t want to pay more while earning less with more experience, but I also understand the crisis in our state and there are certainly many areas that need to be cut. My cost for healthcare this year more than doubled because of increases in premiums, this is not my school distric’s fault. I will remain a teacher and hope that when better times come, I will benefit as well as those in the private sector.

        Enoch_Root-nice of you to consider Ross a TEACHER.

        “I do dislike teachers on the whole (unless the agree with me). I do find them lazy and intellectually-lacking (unless they agree with me). I find most of them well-intentioned do-gooders – with not much else to offer (unless they agree with me). But so what?” *words in parenthesis are mine, not Enoch_Root’s*

        Watch out Ross, this one’s bound to turn on you! I never agreed or disagreed with what is happening in Wisconsin, I simply felt that teacher’s were being characterized unfairly as a group of professionals. I only know what I see on a daily basis at my school and in my district and I know that I work with extremely intelligent, dedicated and hard working individuals. Maybe all of the teacher’s in Wisconsin are different but I would never consider judging an entire group of people by the actions of a few…just me, I guess.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        ( REPLY )
        • Enoch_Root
          February 21st, 2011 - 17:27

          “I do dislike teachers on the whole. I do find them lazy and intellectually-lacking. I find most of them well-intentioned do-gooders – with not much else to offer . But so what?”

          Michaela – I’ll put it like this… I don’t like most lawyers. How’s that?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • KillTruck
      February 21st, 2011 - 12:33

      Thanks, Ross!

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
  25. Meleah
    February 21st, 2011 - 11:37

    Bob & Enoch–It’s called the “Right/Privilege Distinction” in Constitutional law. It is generally agreed among interpreters of the law that there is not a distinction between the two. Do your own homework if you want facts.

    Also, it is not only a right, but a duty for citizens to engage in civil dissent when their rights/privileges are being trampled. Remember why this country was founded? Your Governor refuses to speak to the teachers and engage in civil discourse… as we are doing here. He is not even giving as much respect to his own teachers as was given to the citizens of Egypt during their historical movement. Not only that, but he is threatening to use the National Guard.That is the outrage!

    People from around the world are supporting the teachers. What will you say now? That the unions and Obama are in responsible for that too? I belong to NO union except that of the United States. I speak on behalf of no party, political affiliation or politician. Yet you can’t see that there are plenty of others just like me… simply outraged at the lack of due process & democratic freedom.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    ( REPLY )
    • Enoch_Root
      February 21st, 2011 - 12:41

      An election won by Scott Walker and 17hrs debate on the floor of the Wisconsin Legislature. Sound like plenty of due process.

      As for Right vs Privilege, thank you for your concession.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 21st, 2011 - 12:43

      People from around the world are supporting the teachers.

      What do the opinions of foreigners mean to us here in the US. Nothing…

      Do your own homework if you want facts.

      In other words, you can’t provide any exhibits for your mistaken assertion…

      Your Governor refuses to speak to the teachers and engage in civil discourse… as we are doing here. He is not even giving as much respect to his own teachers as was given to the citizens of Egypt during their historical movement.

      I’ll gove you a pass on red-flagging your for the specious and hyperbolic Egypt comparison; not only is that far from analogous, but it contains the thinly veiled suggestion that Walker=Mubarak, which is risible at best. Walker was elected in free, open, and fair elections.

      And regarding this paragraphs other mistaken assertion, that Walker refuses to engage in civil discourse, or as you probably intended to say negotiations , that was all done during the recent election Meleah, when Walker and the Rethugs! ran on a platform of fiscal austerity and reigning in the power of the public employee union. That debate was openly had in the public space, and the citizens weighed in by electing Walker by a substantial margin, and giving his party a lefgislative majority in both houses.

      You speak of Democracy and freedom…

      Meleah, democracy would be the Senate Democrats actually showing up and convincing enough of their Republican colleagues to vote down Walker’s proposal in favor of an alternative of their crafting. And then if that doesn’t work the Democrats can run on a platform of restoring the collective bargaining rights during the next election.

      Neither the Wisconsin Democrats, nor you it seems, really are interested in a democratic outcome here; but instead are de facto wanting to overturn the results of the last election, and allow what is now the minority party to dictate what goes on in the state legislature. That doesn’t sound very non-partisan to me…

      Were you as concerned when the Democrats on the national level refused to include their opposition in crafting legislation; should they have been forced to “negotiate”? Do elections have consequences?

      And shouldn’t the public employees be able to choose whether they’ll belong to the union? Shouldn’t they be given that Freedom! to negotiate! their own status with the union? What’s wrong with mandating that the union be recertified yearly by an open and transparent vote of the public employees Meleah? It sounds like Freedom!, Transparency!, and Democracy!

      All the things you claim we can’t see, see?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
    • Bob Reed
      February 21st, 2011 - 13:47

      Not only that, but he is threatening to use the National Guard.That is the outrage!

      Oh, and I forgot to address this now oft-repeated canard. The Governor did indeed alert the WI National Guard that their services might be necessary; but not to do any kind of dictatorial beat-down on the protesters, as you seem to be implying by the context you cite this in.

      Walker said Friday that he updated emergency plans and alerted the National Guard just in case they are needed to ensure state services aren’t interrupted.

      http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/115898174.html

      Emphasis mine. So you get that Meleah? He’s contingency planning to use the Guard to provide necessary services, such as prison guards and law enforcement, should the situation warrant it, in order to ensure that there is a continuity in essential services. And not to intimidate or crack down on the protesters, as you and many others have so scurrilously and irresponsibly asserted.

      I’m sure that you’ll understand how a former Naval Officer couldn’t let this now-memetic smear that military forces will be brought to bear against civilians in an oppressive and dictatorial fashion stand without rebuttal.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      ( REPLY )
Newer Comments »

Leave a comment

(required)


6 - = three

Tweets that mention Wisconsin Teacher Salaries in Context | POWIP -- Topsy.com
Anonymous
Union-busting in Wisconsin turns volitile - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community
Flashback: WI Teacher Union Outraged Over No Viagra Benefits (UPDATED x2) « The Prudence Paine Papers
Walker: In 2009, Democratic Wisconsin state senators “rammed through a billion-dollar tax hike in 24 hours with no public input.” | POWIP

Subscribe without commenting

» «

Follow Dan!

Recent Grist

Creature Commentariat

Categories

Feed the Kraken.

Sponsors

Dress Shop

God Botherers

Blogroll

Switch to our mobile site